Thought For The Day
The Momus Rusegroup

Not everybody can access the Momus newsgroup, alt.fan.momus. Which is a pity, because some really interesting debate rages there. Momus people are pithy, broadminded, playful, adventurous and witty, which is more than can be said for, um, Stereophonics fans. (IMHO.)

To give those debarred (demand that your ISP adds alt.fan.momus immediately!) a flavour of proceedings, here is a recent thread on the subject of Pro-Semitism and Homophilia.

By the way, the first three messages are all me in disguise. Someone had to start this particular ball rolling.

Pro-Semitism

Subject: Pro-Semitism
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 15:01:46 +0000
From: Gerry Loeb
Newsgroups: alt.fan.momus

I'd like to raise something I don't see getting much discussed here; Momus's much-vaunted homophilia and pro-semitism. Again and again in his essays and songs we get these claims that 'I really admire them, I really want to be like them'. Kris Kirk, in his Gay Times interview with Momus, said 'I feel like I'm talking to someone more gay than I am'. Then there's that embarrassing scene in his column On Oasism where he gets all collusive with a Jewish music industry guy and starts suggesting that 'we Jews' can look down on the stupidity of people who like Oasis.

Am I the only one to find this slightly creepy?

As a Jewish man who also happens to be gay, I don't automatically admire, like or desire people just because they happen not to have a foreskin or to put their penis in a different passage. Isn't pro-semitism just the flipside of the coin of anti-semitism, and don't they both encourage the sort of identity politics that Momus claims to be against (cf. the discussion of feminism in his Connecticut tour diary)?

What makes it worse is that in claiming to be a friend to jews and gays, Momus claims all the privileges of insiderdom and feels he has the right to start criticising us. In his Cosmpolitan Sophisticates column he rounds on Jewish critic Eric Weisbard and suggests that he is 'one of the small percentage of jews who are anti-semitic', and compounds the insult by saying that Weisbard's (perfectly reasonable) essay resembles Hitler's 'Mein Kampf' (Weisbard probably hasn't read it, but it seems that Momus has). He has the gall to suggest that Weisbard would be on Momus's side if he were more true to his essential Jewishness! He then goes on to suggest that if Kris Kirk hadn't died of AIDS he might have perished later at the hands of 'straight rough trade'!

With stereotyping well-wishers like Momus as our friends, who needs enemies?

Gerry

Subject: Re: Pro-Semitism
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 15:04:08 +0000
From: Trudy Citrine
Newsgroups: alt.fan.momus
References: 1

Momus is clearly someone who falls in love all the time, with girls, boys (I read him talking in one of the LA weeklies about how his relationship with Gilles Toog was like a gay relationship!), writers, artists... He's done more than any pop lyricist I know to promote the work of jewish and gay writers, musicians and artists.

If he sometimes gets a bit gushy about gays and jews, it's because he believes in a pluralism based on the acknowledgement of genuine diffences between people, not some big melting pot where we all pretend to be the same.

>I don't automatically admire, like or desire people just because they happen >not to have a foreskin or to put their penis in a different passage.

Sure, I take your point. But, just as freedom for you as a gay jewish man is incarnated in your right to identify away from the categories you were born into, so freedom for Momus might consist in doing the same, and trading his Scottish waspy puritanism for visions of Tel Aviv and Providence.

The grass is always greener on the other side. Allow Momus to see glamour in your life, even if you don't!

Trudy

Re: Pro-Semitism ("Hermann J. Kidd" , 3:24 pm)

Trudy Citrine wrote:

> trading his Scottish waspy puritanism for visions of Tel Aviv and > Providence.

I think you must mean Provincetown, honey. I wouldn't wave any rainbow flags in Providence if I were you. (Personally, as a poodle-clipping Buddhist from Pluto, I'd rather retire to Miami anyway).

Herm

Re: Pro-Semitism (James Dawson , 3:10 pm)

In article <37BEBF5A.54FA@aol.com>, Dreyfus@aol.com wrote:
> I'd like to raise something I don't see getting much discussed here;
> Momus's much-vaunted homophilia and pro-semitism. Again and again in his
> essays and songs we get these claims that 'I really admire them, I
> really want to be like them'. Kris Kirk, in his Gay Times interview with
> Momus, said 'I feel like I'm talking to someone more gay than I am'.
> Then there's that embarrassing scene in his column On Oasism where he
> gets all collusive with a Jewish music industry guy and starts
> suggesting that 'we Jews' can look down on the stupidity of people who
> like Oasis.
>
> Am I the only one to find this slightly creepy?

This thread reminds me of two episodes of "Seinfeld" (which I realize is pathetic, but cultural touchstones are so hard to come by these days). In one, Jerry is criticized for saying he likes Asian women, and responds, "It's not bad if you say you LIKE a race, is it?" In another, his dentist converted to Judaism so he could feel free to make Jew-related jokes about "his people," which offended Jerry -- not as a Jew, but as a comedian.

The way I see it, whatever somebody is is pretty much an accident of birth. If someone wants to identify with some "other" in a purely positive way, there are worse things that could happen. Also, I think El Momo might be being just a bit ironic. After all, if he really wanted to become Jewish or gay, both "conversions" are certainly "do-able."

Actually, Momus' song "Space Jews" reminded me a lot of Adam Sandler's "Chanukah Song." (Now I'm getting REALLY pathetic...)

--James Dawson
Atheist 'Til the End

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Re: Pro-Semitism ("Robin Carmody" , 3:11 pm)

Trudy Citrine wrote in message news:37BEBFE7.73A9@sheffield.ac.uk...

> Momus is clearly someone who falls in love all the time, with girls,
> boys (I read him talking in one of the LA weeklies about how his
> relationship with Gilles Toog was like a gay relationship!), writers,
> artists... He's done more than any pop lyricist I know to promote the
> work of jewish and gay writers, musicians and artists.
>
> If he sometimes gets a bit gushy about gays and jews, it's because he
> believes in a pluralism based on the acknowledgement of genuine
> diffences between people, not some big melting pot where we all pretend
> to be the same.

I would agree. I wouldn't say I always agree with Momus (as a football fan, I resent his assumption that we are all somehow less intelligent than him) but I certainly prefer the pluralism that Nick believes in to the attempts by certain British politicians to revive the semi-fascistic one-nation Toryism of old.

> The grass is always greener on the other side. Allow Momus to see
> glamour in your life, even if you don't!

Well, I often talk to people who (unbelievably) see glamour in my tawdry existence...

robin

Re: Pro-Semitism (underwatermoonlight@usa.net (victorian squid), 8:36 pm)

James Dawson:

> positive way, there are worse things that could happen. Also, I think El
> Momo might be being just a bit ironic. After all, if he really wanted to
> become Jewish or gay, both "conversions" are certainly "do-able."

Um, no.

Yeah, you could convert to the religon, but it's pretty different from being raised in the faith and the culture.

You could also go around trying to be gay, I've known quite a few who did actually ("gay in college", anyone? :)). But ultimately, one does not have a whole lot of control over what turns one's crank.

I think what this is about is that Momus identifies with cultural outsiders. If he wants to go around "being gay", hey, whatever, it's done out of admiration, not mockery. And he's certainly been beat up and shoved around enough by people who thought he was gay that in a certain sense you could say he's paid those dues.

Love on ya,
v. squid who swims both ways

Re: Pro-Semitism (James Dawson , 3:56 pm)

In article 2108991539400001@w020.z208176192.chi- il.dsl.cnc.net>,
underwatermoonlight@usa.net (victorian squid) wrote:
>
> James Dawson:
>
> > Also, I think El
> > Momo might be being just a bit ironic. After all, if he really wanted to
> > become Jewish or gay, both "conversions" are certainly "do-able."
>
> Um, no.
>
> Yeah, you could convert to the religon, but it's pretty different from
> being raised in the faith and the culture.
>
> You could also go around trying to be gay, I've known quite a few who did
> actually ("gay in college", anyone? :)). But ultimately, one does not have
> a whole lot of control over what turns one's crank.

My point is that if Momus truly felt that he identified with being gay or Jewish -- in other words, if he sincerely did believe that those feelings did "turn his crank" -- he could easily act on his gay impulses (see Anne Heche) or convert to Judaism (see Sammy Davis Jr.) (odd example, perhaps). People do it every day. Whether or not that makes them the same as someone raised in the faith or culture was not the issue; the topic was whether El Momo's affinity for Jews and gays is "creepy." My opinion is that it's more affectionate and ironic, as opposed to "creepy."

--James Dawson

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Re: Pro-Semitism ("Robin Carmody" , 5:07 pm)

victorian squid wrote in message news:underwatermoonlight-2108991539400001@w020.z208176192.chi-il.dsl.cnc.net

> I think what this is about is that Momus identifies with cultural
> outsiders. If he wants to go around "being gay", hey, whatever, it's done
> out of admiration, not mockery. And he's certainly been beat up and shoved
> around enough by people who thought he was gay that in a certain sense you
> could say he's paid those dues.

Which was the subject of "The Homosexual", of course, where Nick said (rightly, IMO) that he'd rather be assumed to be gay than become part of the prevailing, go-getting Thatcherite conception of "masculinity". I don't think homophobia (as far as Nick's experienced it) is class-specific; he refers in that song to "the men from boarding schools and building sites who've told me I'm a homosexual all my life", implying that people from all backgrounds have abused him.

love on ya

robin (19 tomorrow and getting Stars Forever...)

Re: Pro-Semitism (underwatermoonlight@usa.net (victorian squid), 6:34 pm)

James Dawson wrote:

> My point is that if Momus truly felt that he identified with being gay or
> Jewish -- in other words, if he sincerely did believe that those feelings
> did "turn his crank" -- he could easily act on his gay impulses (see Anne
> Heche) or convert to Judaism (see Sammy Davis Jr.)

Anne Heche is bisexual. Not quite the same thing as gay, as I understand and use the term (exclusively attracted to the same gender). Maybe that's where the confusion came in. At any rate, I certainly didn't mean to imply that you were oversimplifying the matter.

It's just that, well, you can probably see how this would be sort of a hotbutton issue for someone who keeps hearing she chose to be a sadomasochist. I chose whether to accept it or not, certainly. I got to choose how I responded. But I didn't really get a vote as to what makes me wet. If you've got conscious control over stuff like that, well, I'm really impressed, because I don't :).

> perhaps). People do it every day. Whether or not that makes them the same
> as someone raised in the faith or culture was not the issue;

No, it wasn't, it was just a small thing that bugged me.

> was whether El Momo's affinity for Jews and gays is "creepy." My opinion
> is that it's more affectionate and ironic, as opposed to "creepy."

I certainly don't feel that it's creepy, either.

Love on ya,
v. squid

Re: Pro-Semitism (vanxxx@my-deja.com, 4:29 pm)

Gerry

>d like to raise something I don't see getting much discussed here;
>Momus's much-vaunted homophilia and
>pro-semitism. Again and again in his
(snip)
>music industry guy and starts
>suggesting that 'we Jews' can look down on the stupidity of people who
>like Oasis. Am I the only one to find this slightly creepy?

Ok sorry for editing this a bit ...

Well I didn't find this that creepy ... I thought 'jewish' and 'gay' can also be seen as a metapher or maybe better an example for people who think different from (or are thought to be different and inferior by stupid people). 'the rest' whoever that is ... from the majority and therefor have suffered more than others.

Momus
>(from the Oasism column)
> The fact that Saul is Jewish, a Jewish person in the entertainment
>industry, is undoubtedly in the back of my mind.
>Just as I am a homosexual without having stuck my penis into a man, so
>I am also a jew despite the fact that I have a foreskin. Don't ask me
>why I am these things, I just am. I have suffered enough for the same
>reasons as jews and gays have suffered. I like to think of myself as
>an honorary member of their clubs. I have the illusion of being able
>to speak their secret languages, Palare and Yiddish.

Gerry
>As a Jewish man who also happens to be gay, I don't automatically
>admire, like or desire people just because they happen not to have a
>foreskin or to put their penis in a different passage. Isn't
>pro-semitism just the flipside of the coin of anti-semitism, and don't
>they both encourage the sort of identity politics

Hmmm ... well I agree it's some sort of stereotyping but it's positiv and very respectful I think ... And all it eventually says that we can all lead a different kind of life ..create things if we only use our brains and imagination ... It's not saysing ALL Jewish people or ALL gays are wonderful and have to be automatically admired. and the rest aren't ... It's not saying all the rest (nonjewish and straight) are useless ... Now THAT would be creepy.

It says nowhere that we all have to be the same or think the same ..or whatever ,,, I think creativity stands against that anyway ...

Anyway it is a fact that many musicians, scientists or philosophers are Jewish ... which to correctly point out and admire is not a bad thing.

I always liked the lines from Spacejews:

>And I really admire them I really want to be like them
>And when you want to be one That's all you need to feel like one
>For in the words of one of them
>Theodor Adorno: 'Soul is just the longing
>Of those with no soul For redemption'
>So why don't you come and join them?
>Space Jews We're bringing you a vision of love '

Of course I can only judge from the outside I am neither Jewish (speaking of wanting to be Jewish has anybody read the book Mona in The Promised Land by Gish Jen, which is a bout a Chinese girl in the United States in the 1960s who decides to covert to Jewish religion ... at some point she explains to a Japanese boy that in the States you can just ..switch and become whoever or whatever you want to be.) nor a gay man (actually some stupid boys in front of a London club did mistake me for one a couple of years back but that was more funny than scary) ...

Kris would never have championed gangsta rap or gabba because he would have been all too aware that these are musics enjoyed by homophobes. To a gay man, there is nothing reassuring about The Mainstream, which is, of course, heterosexual and which often asserts its identity by destroying those who think differently.

At the very worst Kris, had he lived, might have followed Morrissey, Derek Jarman and Pasolini down the steep, masochistic path which leads to straight rough trade and the sexual desire for one's own nemesis. A rocky route to destruction known also to the small percentage of jews who are anti-semitic, and 100% of Maoist intellectua

>! He then goes on to suggest that if Kris Kirk
>hadn't died of AIDS he might have perished later at the >hands of
'straight rough trade'!

Actually I didn't think that was what it said? This is just part of it

vanxxx

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Re: Pro-Semitism (Jay , 5:10 pm)

victorian squid wrote in :

>> was whether El Momo's affinity for Jews and gays is "creepy." My opinion
>> is that it's more affectionate and ironic, as opposed to "creepy."
>
>I certainly don't feel that it's creepy, either.

I have to side with our original poster here: I do think these tendencies (as others have pointed out, best expressed in "Space Jews" and "The Homosexual," respectively) are a little creepy. But I think that's the point. One of the things I've always been attracted to in Nick's work is its ability to creep me out (see "The Guitar Lesson," "Murderers, the Hope of Women," and "The Loneliness of Lift Music"). I happened to be at the show in Camden Town when Momus first played "Space Jews" live, and he himself predicated the song by telling the audience that they should let him know if they were offended. Clearly, Nick isn't trying to hurt anybody's feelings, he's just trying to provoke. It's just that that the provocation in those songs is, IMHO, directed towards members of Nick's audience and their feelings about Jews and Gays. Actually, I think its the fact that it provokes both homophobes and homophiles is one of the things that makes "The Homosexual" so great.

J

Re: Pro-Semitism (dymaxia@ripco.com, 5:14 pm)

Trudy Citrine wrote:
>
> Momus is clearly someone who falls in love all the time, with girls,
> boys (I read him talking in one of the LA weeklies about how his
> relationship with Gilles Toog was like a gay relationship!), writers,
> artists... He's done more than any pop lyricist I know to promote the
> work of jewish and gay writers, musicians and artists.
>
> If he sometimes gets a bit gushy about gays and jews, it's because he
> believes in a pluralism based on the acknowledgement of genuine
> diffences between people, not some big melting pot where we all pretend
> to be the same.
>

Fair enough, but I think the "truth", if it is to be found, if it can be found, probably lies in neither polarity. I'm a straight woman who hails from an illustrious lineage of "faghagism", (for lack of a better word). But it seems to me that the more accepted a certain group becomes, the more mainstream, the more complacent many members of that group become. I've witnessed this in my own community, which is largely gay -- there's been a really painful division this past year between gay yuppies who pretty much want to get rid of any homeless, drug addicts, prostitutes, or just plain poor, working-class, or otherwise financially-challenged (i.e., renters like myself) people, and the gays who are not so spoiled and middle-class, and who haven't forgotten that the city is for *everyone* -- not just spoiled, suburban steroid-bots who can't tolerate the presence of anyone who looks the slightest bit unwashed. The conflict in my neighborhood centered around an aldermanic election earlier this year, and the election was so divisive that many longtime friends are no longer speaking to each other. However irrational it may have been, I felt sort of betrayed and let down for having felt so excited to live in this community, only to find that some people here don't want me or "my kind" -- I'm just undesirable trailer trash. But that's really my fault for expecting to find something different.

That's another danger in idealizing: you're setting yourself up to feel betrayed, and that's not really fair to anyone concerned.

Also, as a woman, I sometimes encounter men who "idealize" women, or who think that women are somehow a little nicer, gentler, and more trustworthy than men. That's actually not flattering -- it's only a few steps away from the nauseating Virgin Mary dogma I had to endure in twelve years of Catholic school. And if you somehow fail to live up to that, you fall much lower in the eyes of the one who exalted you in the first place.

> >I don't automatically admire, like or desire people just because they
happen >not to have a foreskin or to put their penis in a different passage.
>
> Sure, I take your point. But, just as freedom for you as a gay jewish
> man is incarnated in your right to identify away from the categories you
> were born into, so freedom for Momus might consist in doing the same,
> and trading his Scottish waspy puritanism for visions of Tel Aviv and
> Providence.
>

Again, I think it's not so easy. In some ways, in many ways, I've defied my own background, but I also realize that it's shaped me, and I don't see why I should try to rid myself of *any* trace of my origins, as if that's a more admirable level of self-mastery or self-awareness or something. I don't think so-called "identity politics" are as bad as they've been made out to be -- that sort of thinking can be confining, but it can also be necessary to your psychological self-preservation. I spent many years of my youth thinking that I could, but when you come up against people who oppose everything that you *were*, everything that you came out of, you really learn that you can't run away from *everything*.

--
Kerry

Re: Pro-Semitism ("CountV" , 5:42 pm)

Jay wrote:

> victorian squid wrote in
> :
>
>>> was whether El Momo's affinity for Jews and gays is "creepy." My opinion
>>> is that it's more affectionate and ironic, as opposed to "creepy."
>>
>>I certainly don't feel that it's creepy, either.
>
> I have to side with our original poster here: I do think these tendencies > (as others have pointed out, best expressed in "Space Jews" and "The > Homosexual," respectively) are a little creepy. But I think that's the > point. One of the things I've always been attracted to in Nick's work is > its ability to creep me out (see "The Guitar Lesson," "Murderers, the Hope > of Women," and "The Loneliness of Lift Music"). I happened to be at the > show in Camden Town when Momus first played "Space Jews" live, and he > himself predicated the song by telling the audience that they should let > him know if they were offended. Clearly, Nick isn't trying to hurt > anybody's feelings, he's just trying to provoke. It's just that that the > provocation in those songs is, IMHO, directed towards members of Nick's > audience and their feelings about Jews and Gays. Actually, I think its the > fact that it provokes both homophobes and homophiles is one of the things > that makes "The Homosexual" so great.

Huh? No one I know is even remotely offended by The Homosexual. In fact, some of my closer friends who do not buy into the macho culture, yet are still decidedly masculine to those who know them, find the song to be quite liberating (and funny, mind you). I know it describes me quite well - here I am shacked up with a separated woman whose husband (ex-to be) refuses to acknowledge that I might not be gay. He made his mind up after ten minutes, and although there may be some denial about the failure of his marriage, I'm sure that he would think me so anyway.

Also, I don't think Space Jews offensive, either. I found during my first tenure in the US (during my mid-teens) that oddly enough _all_ my friends (met in different places, under different circumstances) were Jews. Not orthdox ones, or even particularly devout, but they all had Jewish lineage _without_exception_. So, there is _something_ about the culture that enourages some form of intellectualism (or at perhaps more properly, intelligence[1]) that I like.

[1] There's an old adage that says "Ignorance is temporary, stupidity is permanent", which I find almost completely wrong. The way I see it, ignorance is a state and stupidity an _attitude_ (more specifically the attitude of not wanting to change the state of ignorance).

CV/John

NP: XTC - Apple Venus Volume One

--
Fear only complacency.
design by Coercion; http://www.m-ideas.com/coercion/index.htm

Re: Pro-Semitism (dymaxia@ripco.com, 6:21 pm)

CountV wrote:
>

> Huh? No one I know is even remotely offended by The Homosexual. In fact,
> some of my closer friends who do not buy into the macho culture, yet are
> still decidedly masculine to those who know them, find the song to be quite
> liberating (and funny, mind you). I know it describes me quite well - here I
> am shacked up with a separated woman whose husband (ex-to be) refuses to
> acknowledge that I might not be gay. He made his mind up after ten minutes,
> and although there may be some denial about the failure of his marriage, I'm
> sure that he would think me so anyway.
>
> Also, I don't think Space Jews offensive, either.

For the record, I don't find any either, and my contributions to this thread were a more general response to the themes of the thread, not those specific songs. IIRC, there was an underlying message in both of those songs that "gay" or "Jewish" "identity" (or, more accurately, the qualities typically associated with those cultures) was more of a transferable or free-floating type of thing.

Although, in my experience, it stands to reason that if you presume one group to be more "intellectual" than another, you are fated to encounter the dumbest of that group. I say that as a person of Irish descent who grew up in a city in which "Irishness" is frequently idealized, especially with regard to verbal acumen (or political acumen and economic success, for that matter). For one thing, it's not entirely true, and for another, Irish people had a clear linguistic advantage when they came here, from which their children and grandchildren greatly benefitted. Politically speaking, they flat out cheated -- like the Italians out east, there were so damn many of them and they used nepotism and cronyism to help each other over. It didn't hurt that there was a plentiful supply of negroes and hillbillies to step over on the way up, either.

What I'm saying is that if you perceive something in a particular group, it might not be so much an inherent strength as it is the product of political and economic conditions. I think this is as true for the Jews as any other ethnic group -- they were pretty much forced to succeed in certain areas, because so many others were closed to them.

--

Kerry

Re: Pro-Semitism (dyeatribe , 7:25 pm)

CountV wrote:
>
> Also, I don't think Space Jews offensive, either.

> CV/John

Hmmmm....

Its a bit spacist though.

Robert Dye

Re: Pro-Semitism (underwatermoonlight@usa.net (victorian squid), Mon 11:32 pm)

McChump wrote:

> I have to side with our original poster here: I do think these tendencies
> (as others have pointed out, best expressed in "Space Jews" and "The
> Homosexual," respectively) are a little creepy.

Well, yes, perhaps a little. I guess it would have been more accurate to
say that it isn't the kind of creepy that I'm offended by.

I'm reminded of this guy that used to hang out at the Leather Rose here in Chicago, and just sketch people. Now, he was harmless, he was not intrusive, he always politely asked your permission before drawing you. Not a problem. But he obviously felt that he was some sort of modern day incarnation of Toulouse-Lautrec in the brothels of Paris.........and yeah, that wor creepy alright. Not to be observed per se. To be fetishized. Particularly to be fetishized as "the glamorous underbelly of seedy nightlife" or whatever. Yuck.

I guess perhaps what I should have said is that from Momus, it doesn't particularly bother me. It isn't the same sort of thing at all. Perhaps because I feel that he celebrates, he identifies, there's a sympathy there- this is different from the kind of "ooh, you're so dirty and outsiderish" vibe I used to get from the sketch artist.

> him know if they were offended. Clearly, Nick isn't trying to hurt > anybody's feelings, he's just trying to provoke.

The fact that he is obviously trying to make us all think also gives it a very different character.

That being said:

CountV:

>Huh? No one I know is even remotely offended by The Homosexual. In fact, some
>of my closer friends who do not buy into the macho culture, yet are still
>decidedly masculine to those who know them, find the song to be quite
>liberating (and funny, mind you).

Ditto on this.

Not only do I not know anyone who is offended by it, but I have several friends that you have just described rather well, who also think it's very funny and liberating. They don't relate to the revenge fantasy aspect so much, but they relate to the anger and the frustration, and generally think it's hilarious.

Love on ya,
v. squid
--
"Be not bell-bottom bummer nor asshole"- J. Richman

Re: Pro-Semitism ("CountV" , 1:13 am)

dymaxia@ripco.com wrote:

> What I'm saying is that if you perceive something in
> a particular group, it might not be so much an inherent
> strength as it is the product of political and economic
> conditions. I think this is as true for the Jews as
> any other ethnic group -- they were pretty much forced
> to succeed in certain areas, because so many others
> were closed to them.

Well, that's certainly part of it, and I see that as having had the effect of making them value knowledge (since in many circumstances, that might be what they had most of).

Of course, it's a generalization, and like all such, will not always be correct, but my personal anekdotal evidence points to that conclusion.

CV/John

--
Fear only complacency.
design by Coercion; http://www.m-ideas.com/coercion/index.htm

Re: Pro-Semitism ("CountV" , 1:14 am)

dyeatribe wrote:

> CountV wrote:
>>
>> Also, I don't think Space Jews offensive, either.
>
>> CV/John
>
> Hmmmm....
>
> Its a bit spacist though.

Yeah, I for one am tired of all these snap judgements about extraterrestrials. So some of them are into anal probing, that doesn't mean _all_ of them are. Sheesh...

CV/John

--
Fear only complacency.
design by Coercion; http://www.m-ideas.com/coercion/index.htm

Re: Pro-Semitism (Jay , 5:41 pm)

CountV wrote in <7ps15o$33b$1@autumn.news.rcn.net>:

>Huh? No one I know is even remotely offended by The Homosexual. In fact,
>some of my closer friends who do not buy into the macho culture, yet are
>still decidedly masculine to those who know them, find the song to be quite
>liberating (and funny, mind you). I know it describes me quite well - here I
>am shacked up with a separated woman whose husband (ex-to be) refuses to
>acknowledge that I might not be gay. He made his mind up after ten minutes,
>and although there may be some denial about the failure of his marriage, I'm
>sure that he would think me so anyway.

I don't think that the only way provocation can occur is via offending someone. I'm not "offended" by any of Momus's lyrics, but they sure can unsettle you a bit. I, too, find "The Homosexual" funny; my point was that it's actually subversive on two different levels. While "The Homosexual" might be offensive to some "macho asshole" (to whom Momus dedicates the song on the LGM comp), I think it's merely thought-provoking to the rest of us. Think about it for a minute--the lead character consciously cloaks himself in a stereotype ("that spectre they projected I will now pretend to be") of for, among other things, REVENGE ("I'll make them sing notes of pleasure their husbands will never hear"). Revenge about what? Being labeled as homosexual. Well, if there's no latent homophobia involved, who cares about being about being labled as homosexual?

It seems to me that while Momus has often expressed admiration for (and critique of) aspects of gay culture, that the scenario presented in the song is sort of his own self-critique in that regard. Nick (I believe) is well aware of his own tendencies to overglamorize or overidentify with gayness (or jewishness, for that matter), and attempts to provoke both himself and his audience into bringing that overglamorization and overidentification to the foreground.

Or perhaps I'm just projecting. I do the same thing, after all. I imagine that others do as well.

J

Re: Pro-Semitism ("CountV" , 2:07 am)

Jay wrote:

> I don't think that the only way provocation can occur is via offending
> someone. I'm not "offended" by any of Momus's lyrics, but they sure can
> unsettle you a bit. I, too, find "The Homosexual" funny; my point was that
> it's actually subversive on two different levels. While "The Homosexual"
> might be offensive to some "macho asshole" (to whom Momus dedicates the
> song on the LGM comp), I think it's merely thought-provoking to the rest of
> us. Think about it for a minute--the lead character consciously cloaks
> himself in a stereotype ("that spectre they projected I will now pretend to
> be") of for, among other things, REVENGE ("I'll make them sing notes of
> pleasure their husbands will never hear"). Revenge about what? Being
> labeled as homosexual. Well, if there's no latent homophobia involved, who
> cares about being about being labled as homosexual?

I see what you mean, but I have never seen the revenge part as being for having been called homosexual per se, but for these men's general condescension and cluelessness. Even if people are name-calling you for something you are not, it is still name-calling. Even if you don't think the epithet a particularly demeaning one, you do know that it is meant in a bad way, and that's enough. I'm sure someone could call me something that I _am_ ("You hetero dominant designer, you") and fill it with enough vitriol that I would find it offensive.
>
> It seems to me that while Momus has often expressed admiration for (and
> critique of) aspects of gay culture, that the scenario presented in the
> song is sort of his own self-critique in that regard. Nick (I believe) is
> well aware of his own tendencies to overglamorize or overidentify with
> gayness (or jewishness, for that matter), and attempts to provoke both
> himself and his audience into bringing that overglamorization and
> overidentification to the foreground.

Oddly enough, though I have been taken for gay, and have many gay friends, I've never really seen the dominant gay paradigm as being all that alluring. In fact, almost all of my gay friends are _not_ Judy Garland fans or Disco-dancing queens (although, some of them will play at it occasionally), and probably come across as more straight than I do, most of the time.

That's not to say that I haven't toyed with the idea of what it would be like being gay or bi, and even tried to be open to any such urges, I'm just not wired that way at all.

CV/John

Momus Rusegroup Column (James Dawson , 2:36 pm)

In today's Momus column ("The Momus Rusegroup"), El Momo 'fesses up that he posted the first three "Pro-Semitism" messages here himself, using pseudonyms -- which is simultaneously deceptive, postmodernist, and pretty darn funny, in my book.

This also adds a cool sense of paranoia to these proceedings. There's now the question of whether any poster might be Momus himself, gently screwing with the faithful. Anybody and everybody on this newsgroup could be Momus. Maybe I'm Momus! (I'm not...but then again, would I admit it?)

My head hurts.

--James Dawson (I think)

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Re: Momus Rusegroup Column
From: Gerry Loeb
Newsgroups: alt.fan.momus

I was mad at Momus when I started the Pro-Semitism thread, but now I'm even madder. Not content with claiming to be gay and jewish when he isn't, now he's claiming to be me! I guess it was only a matter of time before his Zeligism brought him to this: full blown impersonation.

Well, I for one am not having it. Why, if Momus were here right now I'd... Oh shit, he is. He's sitting right in front of my computer, writing. If I look over his shoulder perhaps I can see what he's saying. Oh my god, he's signing my name!

Gerry



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